It is not correct to assume that Ipod, Ipad and Imac are the products of China. All of them were developed by Apple Computer Inc. (an American company), and the vital parts like microchips and others are also coming from developed countries, including Apple. China is just an assembly line. So where are the China's quality products really?

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Evgeny:

I. . .coming from developed countries, including Apple.

I am sure that at least 50% of  components are Chinese made.

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I am pretty sure, more than 50%. Either way,  even if its 0%, I am not clear on what Evgeny is disagreeing with.  No one suggested i-pads were invented by chineese peasants.

Anton, I agree abt the peg, this does not really take away from my points.  If/when the peg is lifted, Chinese GDP would initially increase sharply as their goods increase in price, but would have a negative affect on growth longer-term.  Bottom line is about the same, the underlying purpose of the peg is to buy time during which other sources of growth are identified and developed, primarily growth and stabilization of internal consumer class.

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

China has companies that develop products from ground up, like HTC, like FoxConn, VIA, NVidia...etc... 

At the beginning of this century german products were laught at for their quality, then it were japanese... now Chinese... actualy, it should be american, haven't seen anything quality made here in 10 years (except weapons)...

 

 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

412:

Evgeny:

I. . .coming from developed countries, including Apple.

I am sure that at least 50% of  components are Chinese made.

Oh really? Well, I am sure it is 10.258489%. How about that? 

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Egor:

I am pretty sure, more than 50%. Either way,  even if its 0%, I am not clear on what Evgeny is disagreeing with.  No one suggested i-pads were invented by chineese peasants.

Anton, I agree abt the peg, this does not really take away from my points.  If/when the peg is lifted, Chinese GDP would initially increase sharply as their goods increase in price, but would have a negative affect on growth longer-term.  Bottom line is about the same, the underlying purpose of the peg is to buy time during which other sources of growth are identified and developed, primarily growth and stabilization of internal consumer class.

Disagreeing with what? Please clarify that one for me, bc just by saying it, doesn't make your statements about my opinion right. And stop playing that weasel crap with me. You know perfectly well what I meant in my previous posts. What you call high quality products is not a phenomenon of Chinese economy. Had they made them all from a scratch, on their own, then your argument would be stronger… All they do is use a cheap labor, earn money and buy more technologies from other countries and make more products. It is what you called a State Capitalism, or how should I put it -- a perverted form of Capitalism. The Chinese state authorities know that and they will use it in the future by all means, even though the Chinese themselves will continue to live in poor conditions. 

I am glad you have acknowledged Anton's take of view on the matter of debt to China. I have to add that sooner or later we have to pay off our debt by selling technologies to them. 

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Evgeny:

Oh really? Well, I am sure it is 10.258489%. How about that? 

There are pull aparts out there, with nice hi-res pictures, you can take a look. The remaining components are Taiwanese and Malaysian made, I highly doubt there are US mae components.

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412:

Evgeny:

Oh really? Well, I am sure it is 10.258489%. How about that? 

There are pull aparts out there, with nice hi-res pictures, you can take a look. The remaining components are Taiwanese and Malaysian made, I highly doubt there are US mae components.

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

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Evgeny:

Disagreeing with what? Please clarify that one for me, bc just by saying it, doesn't make your statements about my opinion right.

 Actually you're the one who disagreed with an elementary statement about ipad and iphone manufacturing in China.  You seem to have said that because the Chinese didn't invent it that they cannot claim manufacturing credit for it?  Actually, I'm not sure what you're trying to say 100% because, truth is, Evgeny, you are very hard to understand.  You say a lot of dramatic stuff that at the end doesn't make a lot of coherent sense.  No offense.

And stop playing that weasel crap with me. You know perfectly well what I meant in my previous posts.

Actually, not really.  I assume that I don't understand what you say.  Actually, from reading your post my first reaction is to think you are an idiot, but because I realize you are probably a normal, decent individual, I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that I just didn't quite understand you.  I don't think that makes me or Egor or 412 a weasel.

What you call high quality products is not a phenomenon of Chinese economy.

Who said that it was?  Did Egor or 412 actually say, "guys, great high quality products are a phenomenon of Chinese economy."  - no one said this, not even close.  In fact, no one even claimed that China has great high quality products.  Though they do, and again, this depends on who is ordering them.  Lenovo is high quality.  So is Apple, just to give you two examples.  There's plenty of others.  Most may be crap, but then again, for every one Bentley or BMW maker there's 10 shitty makers.  That's always the case.

Had they made them all from a scratch, on their own, then your argument would be stronger…

Again, you reason like a child, without knowing the manufacturing process.  It is very rare that a product is 100% manufactured in one plant.  It is normal that a manufacturing plant uses various pre-existing parts to configure a finished product.  These parts, be it widgets or nuts or bolts may or may not be developed in a) same country, different manufacturer or b) different country altogether.

All they do is use a cheap labor, earn money and buy more technologies from other countries and make more products.

What's wrong with this?  Cheap labor...Ok, if you are going to hire someone to 'put together' some products, are you gonna try to pay as little as possible?  Why doesn't the guy who you order french fries from make $100K per year?   Because McDonalds tries to pay as little as possible.  Perhaps the accepted rate is $10 per hour.  Whatever it may be, McDonalds deals with this 'norm'.  Same with manufacturing companies, in China or anywhere else.  They pay whatever the 'norm' may be in that country or area.  I do agree that there's sweatshops and cheap labor in China but this is a separate problem that will eventually (hopefully) get better as China becomes more and more a member of the world business community.  However, this is not the problem of the manufacturing companies.  By the way, thanks to this cheap labor you are able to afford a lot more stuff and products than you otherwise might be able to have in life.  So while you complain, you make use of it.  IF you feel so wrong about 'cheap labor' how about you boycott anything made in China?  Good luck with that.

OK, so that was about cheap labor.  Next was 'make money'.  You have a problem with this?  What's wrong with making money.  Do you make money or are you living with mom & dad?

And last but not least, "..buy more technologies from other countries and make more products."  Seriously?  You think this is bad?  For someone to BUY technology and make more products?  Maybe you should not live in a capitalist society.

 

It is what you called a State Capitalism, or how should I put it -- a perverted form of Capitalism. The Chinese state authorities know that and they will use it in the future by all means, even though the Chinese themselves will continue to live in poor conditions.

I'm not sure about this.  As far as I know, life there is better than say, 10 years ago.  Partially due to the business advances of China.  I hope that this trend of a better life for Chinese people will continue, though of course they have a way to go...

I am glad you have acknowledged Anton's take of view on the matter of debt to China. I have to add that sooner or later we have to pay off our debt by selling technologies to them.

I have no knowledge about this stuff so I will not comment (on the little Anton-Egor China & debt argument).  It is a good idea, Evgeny, when you don't know sh!t about something to keep quiet.  Like I will in regard to the debate between Egor and Anton.  Like you should in regards to basic manufacturing :)

 

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IntensityInsanity:

 It is a good idea, Evgeny, when you don't know sh!t about something to keep quiet. 

I think I'll do just that :)

Nicely done II. I have a checkmate! It's probably the best post you ever had here on the forum btw. All I wanted was a conversation. I am sorry I had to stir things up and act sometimes like a jerk (not to you though, recently). How can I argue with you when I agree with most you've just said.

This forum is fine now. People are talking and active, that's all I need. Let's see how it goes. I'll be reading you russian.atlanta :) So long.

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Intel CPUs are not designed in US either.....

 

Very good article I just posted, accordingt o Intel boss, it's not the cheap labor that's a deciding factor or main cost factor in a decision where to build high tech factory - it's taxes and incentives...

;)

 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

Both are a deciding factor, and that is simple common sense.  While I agree with every word in that article, both the author and the people quoted are making calculated statements, not objective observations.  Same article could have been written stating labor cost is the factor.  And that article would be correct too

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Egor:

Anton, I agree abt the peg, this does not really take away from my points.  If/when the peg is lifted, Chinese GDP would initially increase sharply as their goods increase in price, but would have a negative affect on growth longer-term.  Bottom line is about the same, the underlying purpose of the peg is to buy time during which other sources of growth are identified and developed, primarily growth and stabilization of internal consumer class.

 In this hypothetical scenario, GDP would not increase sharply. Two things here. One is, cost of labor, resources and production would have increased and this would increase the cost of goods sold. As soon as cost of goods increased, vendors would switch to a competitor. China is not world's only manufacturing base. You would be surprised how fast these processes run their course. Chinese factories would lose most orders within a few months, should the peg be broken.

On the flip side, the "empowered" Chinese consumers would start buying more imports, as imports would become relatively cheaper, and also carry a "status" symbol. In multi-billion-people China, status is everything. Most likely, Chinese trade proficit would likely decline, in view of this demand, and this would also decrease its GDP.

Currency pegs and fluctuations never translate directly into top line economic value. Instead, they morph through the value chain process and fundamentally change all aspects of it.

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Sic semper tyrannis
~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

I don't think we are disgareeing here generally.  Orders from importers with nothing invested in terms of infrastructure and resources would drop fairly quickly, I agree.  Those a little more involved may be anchored for some time by various circumstances, but even that is only temporary.  Absolutely, net exports (if measured in yuan) would begin a drop immediately due to short-term domestic hyper-deflation, even before exports begin a drop.   If measured in Dollars or Euros, however, (which is a more conventionally accepted metric),  export revenues would shoot up until overtaken by drop in total exports.  That's all I was saying. 

That said, we are assuming that removing the peg immediately makes China unattractive to further growth in export of consumer goods.  This is by far a worst case scenario for them, and one that does not carry a confident consensus among economic scholars .  Remember, that a local market is never 100% attractive or 100% unattractive. (Although China with its currency peg, and US with its tax policies and labor costs certainly approach these numbers respectively).   More likely, China would simply slow the long-term acceleration in rate of its growth, or at worst - maintain.  Global economy is currently in early stages of unprecedented expansion of the consumer class, which provides plenty of growth opportunities to go around, even in seemingly unattractive markets.  Everything is relative.

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher