Given the right circumstances Leah, anyone of us who are "good people" could be a criminal. Even the founding fathers. There can be no security anywhere in the free world if there is no economic stability within the United States. Those who ask us to trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state are architects of a policy of accommodation. -Reagan

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

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Originally posted by Leah: However, as said earlier, I can work to elect the official whom I believe will carry out my wishes the most closely. Those wishes might indeed include some of the tools and approaches that might be used.

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Leah, since you said “I believe” and “my view” then you should agree to the lack of objectivity in your views and judgments…

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Originally posted by Leah: Read my earlier posts about military accountability in this topic for the answer to the last part.

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I did and I thought I answered – every military person is accountable to military court called Tribunal. In addition, military as a whole is ultimately accountable to a committee of US Congress that judges military actions by interviewing military professionals and subject matter experts. "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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Originally posted by Egor: I like this game of who can come up with the most exciting example! :) In every case, people making logistical decisions should be professionals. Nonprofessionals, as beneficiaries of professionals, are those who judge the intent and outcome, but not the process. As far as self-control, I think it is irrelevant to anyone other than that individual. People are judged by their actions, not their level of control. If you hit someone, you have commited assault regardless of what they said. Even if we all agree that it was justified to hit them. Even if you were drunk and did not know what you were doing at all.

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Samples RULZ!! Anyways, Egor, I think we are in sync now... "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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Here are some good quotes: "Kill one man, and you're a murderer. Kill everyone, and you're god." "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." There can be no security anywhere in the free world if there is no economic stability within the United States. Those who ask us to trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state are architects of a policy of accommodation. -Reagan

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

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Originally posted by mestiza: Given the right circumstances Leah, anyone of us who are "good people" could be a criminal. Even the founding fathers. There can be no security anywhere in the free world if there is no economic stability within the United States. Those who ask us to trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state are architects of a policy of accommodation. -Reagan

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Somehow, you seem to be having a debate with me about a subject that I was unaware that we were debating.... ;)

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Somehow, you seem to be having a debate with me about a subject that I was unaware that we were debating.... ;)

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No, you started talking about criminal acts and criminals so I was debating with you on the topic you started. There can be no security anywhere in the free world if there is no economic stability within the United States. Those who ask us to trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state are architects of a policy of accommodation. -Reagan

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

Using the medical example which was brought up before, here's a hypothetical scenario. A neurosurgery was performed, the patient slips into coma. The doctors, though professionals, in most of the cases cannot make a desision whether to keep a patient on a life support or not. They can advise on chances of a patient to regain consiousness, but it's the relatives that have to make an ultimate desision.

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Originally posted by TAP3AH:

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Originally posted by Leah: However, as said earlier, I can work to elect the official whom I believe will carry out my wishes the most closely. Those wishes might indeed include some of the tools and approaches that might be used.

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Leah, since you said “I believe” and “my view” then you should agree to the lack of objectivity in your views and judgments…

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Originally posted by Leah: Read my earlier posts about military accountability in this topic for the answer to the last part.

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I did and I thought I answered – every military person is accountable to military court called Tribunal. In addition, military as a whole is ultimately accountable to a committee of US Congress that judges military actions by interviewing military professionals and subject matter experts. "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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Hmmm...I thought my earlier comments referred to the way that the public is involved with this process....voting and public demand that can lead to such a tribunal. Since I am agreeing with Egor and you are now agreeing with Egor, what is it in my statements to which you are objecting? Why do you often call me "Leah, dear" whenever you are disagreeing with me...just curious...have noticed that before?

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Originally posted by Leah: Since I am agreeing with Egor and you are now agreeing with Egor, what is it in my statements to which you are objecting?

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Its tru that you guys completely disagree, but somehow both agree with me. This is very interesting. I should really consider going into politics...

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Originally posted by Leah: Why do you often call me "Leah, dear" whenever you are disagreeing with me...just curious...have noticed that before?

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When he disagrees with me, he calls me a socialist. :) Want to trade? :)

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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Originally posted by mestiza:

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Somehow, you seem to be having a debate with me about a subject that I was unaware that we were debating.... ;)

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No, you started talking about criminal acts and criminals so I was debating with you on the topic you started. There can be no security anywhere in the free world if there is no economic stability within the United States. Those who ask us to trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state are architects of a policy of accommodation. -Reagan

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Mestiza, I agree that native americans were treated very badly. I agree that sometimes the standing law must be defied in order for justice to occur...specifically, in your posts, with regard to the American Revolution. With regard to punishing the founding father's for either of these very different instances, honestly I have never given it much thought. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the subjects. Though we do not always agree on every subject, I am always impressed with the amount of thought you give to a subject while forming your opinion.

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Originally posted by Egor:

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Originally posted by Leah: Since I am agreeing with Egor and you are now agreeing with Egor, what is it in my statements to which you are objecting?

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Its tru that you guys completely disagree, but somehow both agree with me. This is very interesting. I should really consider going into politics...

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Originally posted by Leah: Why do you often call me "Leah, dear" whenever you are disagreeing with me...just curious...have noticed that before?

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When he disagrees with me, he calls me a socialist. :) Want to trade? :)

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lol....I think I'll stick with dear...I have been called much worse....;)

So I am going to assume something Leah. Based on your own definition of a criminal... you would obviously agree that the founding fathers were criminals correct? I mean, they did kill millions of innocent people in a genocide right? And they did commit the act of treason against their government, the British Empire, which they surely would have been executed if they lost the war. I personally think that the law was wrong on in this particular case and the founding fathers were right to rebel against the law of the British Empire. I also think that the fouding fathers were wrong to kill millions of innocent people and destroy an entire advanced civilization. Yet, the fouding fathers were never punished for that particular crime of genocide and were so quick to judge others and condemn others as criminals. The point I am trying to make Leah is that given the right circumstances any of us "good people" could be crimnals and that principle holds true for the founding fathers when they themselves committed crimes (and of course were never held accountable for what they did). There can be no security anywhere in the free world if there is no economic stability within the United States. Those who ask us to trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state are architects of a policy of accommodation. -Reagan

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

But I guess on the same token, you do need law and to hold people accountable in certain circumstances to prevent society from turning into chaos. If somebody were murdered and their was no law to hold into account the murderer, then the family of the murdered would go after the murderer and being a cycle of violence which would bring chaos. But anyone of us, could end up being the criminal if we are put under the right circumstances. Like many people in some countries I have been got into trouble with the law because of ties to organized crime. Yet, because the economies were so bad, they had to go to organized crime to survive. Some would judge these people and say they deserve prison. Others like myself would say that I can understand why they were involved with organized crime, because if I was poor and had no food to eat, no job I probably would also go to organized crime to try to survive and provide myself or family with something. There can be no security anywhere in the free world if there is no economic stability within the United States. Those who ask us to trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state are architects of a policy of accommodation. -Reagan

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

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Originally posted by Leah: Hmmm...I thought my earlier comments referred to the way that the public is involved with this process....voting and public demand that can lead to such a tribunal. Since I am agreeing with Egor and you are now agreeing with Egor, what is it in my statements to which you are objecting? Why do you often call me "Leah, dear" whenever you are disagreeing with me...just curious...have noticed that before?

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I was disagreeing with your earlier statement that " ... there are non-medical persons who are, and must be, in place to judge the surgeon's actions and decisions...". I call you Leah, dear because I like reading your posts and based on your posts, your values in general. I called Egor socialist because he asked for it (even though I like the logic in most of his posts). "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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Originally posted by TAP3AH:

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Originally posted by Leah: Hmmm...I thought my earlier comments referred to the way that the public is involved with this process....voting and public demand that can lead to such a tribunal. Since I am agreeing with Egor and you are now agreeing with Egor, what is it in my statements to which you are objecting? Why do you often call me "Leah, dear" whenever you are disagreeing with me...just curious...have noticed that before?

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I was disagreeing with your earlier statement that " ... there are non-medical persons who are, and must be, in place to judge the surgeon's actions and decisions...". I call you Leah, dear because I like reading your posts and based on your posts, your values in general. "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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Ah, in that case, please continue to do so... :)