Egor:

_Sergey_:

Orkster:

Healthcare needs to be affordable and accessible. Everyone benefits if it is, I think it's pretty obvious. How we arrive at it is another matter. If the market does not do it, leaving it undone is hardly better than having a government program.

No opinion. Out of tax discussion context.

I would make the case that it is not out of context, but I would say the opposite of what Orkster is saying - government involvement is PRECISELY what keeps the market from offering affordable and accessible health care, by removing the affordability constraint that works so well in keeping down costs of all unregulated products and services.  Why not charge 1000000 for a surgery?  why not 1000000000?  Insurance or governement will pay it.  The total costs - distributed over the healthy population - regardless of method - be it taxes, insurance premiums, or other clever sh*t, is potentially the very problem that is the root of all evil in US healthcare.

Oh, jeez, could you please elaborate on how market is going to improve health system if we remove government regulations or involvement?

History teaches us, that without such involvement health care becomes an luxury item, available only to upper middle class and higher. Why this time around will it be any better ?

It's like with labor market, without government involvement it becomes 12 hours work day, no vacation, no benefits crap....

Like with food idustry, where all kind of unsanitary crap will start .....

As I said before - market can't do nothing, except ruin majority's lives.
 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

I am not opposed to regulation dealing with these issues, I've argued for government regulation of Health care many times on this forum, was accused of being a socialist :)

Why is it that people cannot differentiate the babies from the bathwater?  You cannot say regulation is bad in all cases, you cannot say its good in all cases.  You cannot say tax cut is good in all cases, you cannot say it is bad in all cases.  It is democracy that looks at each situation on a case by case basis and makes a determination.  While most people cannot differentiate anything, there is a "swing vote" - classical independents that decide on these things on a case by case.  And i am not talking about the bandwagon independents that are a dime a dozen this election cycle.

To repeat what I've said here many times before, healthcare is not a luxury.  I agree with you, and your entire list of examples. So regulate the actual problems - the world is the government's oyster For example - cap costs and tie them to inflation.  Or provide financial aid to the poor in the form of grants or interest free deferrable loans, like we do for education.  Maybe have government run clinics for only for those who choose them.  ( basically canadian system, but only  for those below poverty line).  Maybe that system can even compete as far as costs are concerned for the middle class.  Especially if you are right about the governments ability to do something right.   I could go on for pages, and there are great ideas both tested and untested. And all of this combined is cheaper that what Obama wants, and even chaper than what we have now.

More importantly - no one can dispute what i said - there is nothing capping costs at this point.  I randomply put a bunch of zeros in my numbers in the last post, and I can add more.  Even Orkster understands that letting people keep more of their money (all classes) will stimulate both economic production and consumption.  (sorry Orkster, couldn;t help it )Why then are we applying this tremndous burden to economic growth, which will drain trillions of dollars from every income bracket, with the only return being even higher costs and dubious improvements in the actual health of the nation?  So that we have more poor people to support?  We don't have enough?

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

KGBMan:

As I said before - market can't do nothing, except ruin majority's lives.
 

government

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

As far as government/market ruining lives can not but repeat an old maxim: a government is good for society overall and bad for the private individual.

 

I think we were originally talking about Obama vs. McCain, and we went into competing ideologies of taxation… that’s good because a President decides few actual matters and is a very important ideological actor.

 

I think Democratic victory is highly likely. If it occurs, Democratic tax cut is all but assured. Perhaps we can go back to the good old times – people elect Tribune. Tribune distributes bread to supporters. The people hold off threatening to gut the rich until another election.

 

This country will do just fine with either tax plan; both have marginal effects on the economy. Obama’s plan will lower the cost of government for me personally, that’s all there is to it.

 

What’s really important is to continue marginalizing people like KGBman and Cynthia McKinney so that their views are heard but not taken seriousely.

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Jedem Das Seine.

Egor:

I am not opposed to regulation dealing with these issues, I've argued for government regulation of Health care many times on this forum, was accused of being a socialist :)

 

yeah, say..why is it that government can regulate firefighting "business", but can't regulate health care business?

can you imaging a firefighting team arriving at your location and asking for insurance before putting out fire? LOL:-)

or police...

 "Maamm.. before we start chasing that suspect. yeah.. the one over there..who's running away, with no pants... we need to see your suspect-chasing insurance first...":-)

 

Government regulation didn't affect badly neither firefighting nor police force in this country. They are pretty effective, .. even on their 35K salaries.

Why doctors can't be as effective for 50K a year?? I think government regulation would pretty quickly kick out of medical professions those "doctors" who are in there only for the money.

Pretty useful thing to do, in my opinion:-)

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pomidorchik:

Why doctors can't be as effective for 50K a year?? I think government regulation would pretty quickly kick out of medical professions those "doctors" who are in there only for the money.

Pretty useful thing to do, in my opinion:-)

It is not doctors. It is industry. Doctor will write you a prescription and send you for lab work. For that he charges around $100-$140 per visit. Lab work, drugs, surgery and hospitalization is what gonna bitecha. Especially if it involves modern technology. If you ever had a surgery you can take a look at itemized bill and see that doctor's charge there is not that big. The largest portion is anesthesia and hospital care charges.

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Egor:

KGBMan:

As I said before - market can't do nothing, except ruin majority's lives.
 

government

Both !

plus there is no such thing as market anyhow. It's like humanity or ethics - pretty, but don't exist.

 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

Let's all remember that for KGBman humanity, ethics and free market do not exist.

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Jedem Das Seine.

Orkster:

Let's all remember that for KGBman humanity, ethics and free market do not exist.

 

I already asked you once to show me an example of free market economy , you didn't.

I'm pretty sure you won;t be able to provide universally accepted definition of humanity or ethics or prove their existence. 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

You are sitting behind a computer, this side of the ocean, clothed and fed and you are asking me to prove the existence of free market... you got a higher education and you are asking me to prove the existence of ethics... empirical existence I presume, something I can kick and say, this is it...

   ...I give up...

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Jedem Das Seine.

Orkster:

You are sitting behind a computer, this side of the ocean, clothed and fed and you are asking me to prove the existence of free market... you got a higher education and you are asking me to prove the existence of ethics... empirical existence I presume, something I can kick and say, this is it...

   ...I give up...

what possible relationship does my location has with free market ??

Or existence of clothing and food ? Show me one freaking example of a free market ? Please !!

Wait, you don't mean US has a free market economy, do you ?!?!  Really ??

Maybe it's my turn to ask about your education....

About ethics, I just want something universal, not something one particular group of people has, even if it's a large group of people... same about humanity...

 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

Kokosha has made the strongest point in this discussion so far.

 

 

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Evgeny:

Kokosha has made the strongest point in this discussion so far.

 

 

 

Kokosha's only point was "This  is taken from livejournal. I'm actually just interested in what people guess."

Good to know you are paying attention :)

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

I know that!!! I just hope YOU, Egor, are not Kokosha....

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pomidorchik:

Egor:

I am not opposed to regulation dealing with these issues, I've argued for government regulation of Health care many times on this forum, was accused of being a socialist :)

 

yeah, say..why is it that government can regulate firefighting "business", but can't regulate health care business?

can you imaging a firefighting team arriving at your location and asking for insurance before putting out fire? LOL:-)

or police...

 "Maamm.. before we start chasing that suspect. yeah.. the one over there..who's running away, with no pants... we need to see your suspect-chasing insurance first...":-)

 

Government regulation didn't affect badly neither firefighting nor police force in this country. They are pretty effective, .. even on their 35K salaries.

Why doctors can't be as effective for 50K a year?? I think government regulation would pretty quickly kick out of medical professions those "doctors" who are in there only for the money.

Pretty useful thing to do, in my opinion:-)

I think you answered your own question at the end.  Firefighting and police are simply not profitable.  Therefore, without goverment, they would not exist in an effective form.  Health care, on the other hand, is one of the most profitable industries in human history.  In modern times - even more so, because there is a need for expensive research and development.  Let's not forget what countries have contributed most in this field.  And lets not forget why. 

Reason Canada's system is even close to adequate is what was given to them by scientists in countries that still STUDY AND INVENT.  Once patents expire - Canada is all over it. I think we all understand that health care science is still in infancy.  So... any regulation must be weighed in what effect it would have on this. 

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский