Here is yesterday's quote from Donald Rumsfeld: "Let's say you tried to have an election and you could have it in three-quarters or four-fifths of the country. But in some places you couldn't because the violence was too great, well, so be it. Nothing's perfect in life, so you have an election that's not quite perfect." Is he joking!? Are we losing sight of the big picture? Its bad enough that the legitimacy and legality of any election is already in question. How will this be seen by the Iraqis and the world? Not only have we installed a puppet regime, an unpopular police state that we proceeded to arm and militarize and train, and now we get to decide which parts of the country can vote and which can't. Any opinions?

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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Originally posted by Egor: Here is yesterday's quote from Donald Rumsfeld: "Let's say you tried to have an election and you could have it in three-quarters or four-fifths of the country. But in some places you couldn't because the violence was too great, well, so be it. Nothing's perfect in life, so you have an election that's not quite perfect." Is he joking!? Are we losing sight of the big picture? Its bad enough that the legitimacy and legality of any election is already in question. How will this be seen by the Iraqis and the world? Not only have we installed a puppet regime, an unpopular police state that we proceeded to arm and militarize and train, and now we get to decide which parts of the country can vote and which can't. Any opinions?

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Dazhe slonu ponyatno - it is better to have an election then not to have one... "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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I did not say it is better to have no election. I am saying no election should be held until every region of the country can vote. It was stupid to name a date for the election so long ago. Now we have to have it no matter what. Maybe 3 people will vote and 2 of them will get blown up at the polls. Better than no election? Maybe.

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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Originally posted by Egor: I did not say it is better to have no election. I am saying no election should be held until every region of the country can vote. It was stupid to name a date for the election so long ago. Now we have to have it no matter what. Maybe 3 people will vote and 2 of them will get blown up at the polls. Better than no election? Maybe.

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Oh, let me make sure I get it right – no election should be held in Russia until last Chechen is dead? No election in USA until the last Al Qaeda member has been killed? Well then we have to cancel democracy in Israel until the last arab recognizes its right to exist! Just freeze the life!! Gotcha!! Thank you!! Got bless the socialism with human face!! "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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I don't see the connection with Russia, the US, and Israel. And again, socialism. By taking a position of a country that forcibly installs democracies in other countries, it is imperative that we understand the definition of the word "democracy". A democratic election is not better or worse based on who votes. It is either legitimate or illegitimate. We have put ourselves in the position of having the burden of proof. Guess which regions will not be allowed to vote? That's right, the Sunni triangle, Falluja, Tikrit. Try having elections in the US without several major states involved, and then prove to me that it is legitimate.

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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Originally posted by Egor: I don't see the connection with Russia, the US, and Israel. And again, socialism. By taking a position of a country that forcibly installs democracies in other countries, it is imperative that we understand the definition of the word "democracy". A democratic election is not better or worse based on who votes. It is either legitimate or illegitimate. We have put ourselves in the position of having the burden of proof. Guess which regions will not be allowed to vote? That's right, the Sunni triangle, Falluja, Tikrit. Try having elections in the US without several major states involved, and then prove to me that it is legitimate.

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Whatever... Everything you say resembles with what sKerry was saying yesterday. Bottom line is - our liberals know better than Iraqi people what is good for them. "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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I don't care about liberals. I don't care about conservatives. Why is everything a political game? We are playing god with a sovereign country, whether or not this is justifiable is a separate discussion. But we are where we are, and our liberals don't know what's best for the Iraqi people any more than our conservatives do. This is not domestic policy, it is a foreign policy. And god forbid, our liberals and conservatives should come to a consensus about the strategy. Whether or not you think you won the argument about the election, the point is that no one in the world except for US conservatives will see this election as legitimate. Is this not a worthwhile concern?

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

Egor, no one is playing God here... It was Iraqi Prime Minister who made the decision to have an election, here: Iraqi prime minister thanks U.S. for sacrifice Violence won't delay voting, he tells Congress September 24, 2004 BY RON HUTCHESON and SUMANA CHATTERJEE FREE PRESS WASHINGTON STAFF WASHINGTON -- Iraqi interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi thanked Americans on Thursday for their sacrifices in Iraq and promised that violence would not stop planned elections in January. In an emotional speech to a joint session of Congress, Allawi sketched an optimistic future for a country beset by terrorism, ethnic tension and economic difficulty. He acknowledged the problems but insisted that Iraq is well on its way to becoming a stable democracy. "Thank you, America," Allawi said to members of Congress. "We the people of the new Iraq will remember those who have stood by us." At a later news conference with President George W. Bush, the Iraqi leader urged other nations to help Iraq emerge from the "dark ages of tyranny, aggression and corruption." Allawi pledged to stick with the election timetable, despite expectations of more violence before the elections. He said 15 of the 18 Iraqi provinces are already secure enough to hold elections. Shortly after Allawi's visit to the Capitol, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld suggested that as much as one-fourth of Iraq could be too dangerous to participate in the elections. But other aspects of Allawi's upbeat assessment also were called into question. Although Bush and Allawi cited progress in training Iraqi security forces, State Department figures indicate that fewer than half of the 85,000 Iraqi police and fewer than 40 percent of the 12,700-member Iraqi army have received training. And even with the untrained recruits, the security force is far short of the goal of 213,000 police officers and 23,600 soldiers. "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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Come on, you know this guy is Bush's puppet. If things dont go well he'll be living in Long Island in a mansion in a few years. If he doesn't get shot before then. He is a very brave man, I admire him, and hope for the sake of Iraq and for the sake of America that he can get something done. But I do not think he can. He says what we want him to say. If it was somehow possible to conduct a fair referendum, do you think most Iraqis would even support him?

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

:-) i thought it was Bush who knew what was better for the Iraqi people, not the liberals.

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OK!! I got it!! That is what this is all about!! It has nothing to do with Iraq or Iraqi election!! This is all about hate towards Bush and being afraid that his policy in Iraq will succeed!! Shame on me for being so naïve and thinking that you guys discussing situation in Iraq!! "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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I honestly hope that Bush's policy succeeds. Believe it or not. Tarzan, you are simplifying things as usual. Liking or disliking Bush is not a lonestanding argument. I want America to succeed.

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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Originally posted by Egor: I want America to succeed.

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Egor, I know you do! Otherwise I wouldn't talk to you here. My point is that today’s plan on building democracy in the Iraq is much better than the criticism without solutions and everything else that we keep hearing from demagogues in the media and on the left. "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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Tarzan, that was me who jumped into discussion with Bush. Egor has nothing to do with that. But I want Bush's policies to fail in Iraq. I mean the policy of robbing that country of its natural resources. I'd rather see Russia developing their oil fields.

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I actually agree that the current plan is better than the criticism because criticism is not a plan by definition. But criticism IS a necessary building block of any good plan. Forcing critics to provide immediate solutions to this huge problem is not fair, because no one asks this of the president. No one has an immediate solution, and no one should be forced to provide one. The critics criticize the DIRECTION - the a priori creation of the problem itself. True, it does not improve the current plan because it is not a concrete set of actions. But it will affect accountability and decisionmaking in the future.

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский